03/16/2010 (4:19 am)
Praying to saints = contacting the dead?
educate me.
Why do you think god created Adam and Eve to be on earth, its because that's where God wants us to reside and enjoy it as a paradise earth until they sinned then the paradise was lost! So our purpose is to be on earth not in the Heavens. Angels belongs in heavens, however, there are 144,000 chosen anointed human beings who will rule with Jesus in Heaven. Here is a scripture to back that up! "Revelation 14:1
[ The Lamb and the 144,000 ] Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb (Jesus) , standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads." for those of you who believed they belong in Heaven! Tell me what is your purpose for being in heaven? If you want to learn the truth, maybe its time you search for the true church!
Catholics pray to saints to pray for them just like any other Christian asks a friend to pray for them.
The historic Christian practice of asking our departed brothers and sisters in Christâ ”the saintsâ ”for their intercession has come under attack in the last few hundred years. Though the practice dates to the earliest days of Christianity and is shared by Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, the other Eastern Christians, and even some Anglicansâ ”meaning that all-told it is shared by more than three quarters of the Christians on earthâ ”it still comes under heavy attack from many within the Protestant movement that started in the sixteenth century.
Asking one person to pray for you in no way violates Christâ ™s mediatorship. The intercession of fellow Christiansâ ”which is what the saints in heaven areâ ”also clearly does not interfere with Christâ ™s unique mediatorship because in the four verses immediately preceding 1 Timothy 2:5, Paul says that Christians should interceed: "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:1â “4). Clearly, then, intercessory prayers offered by Christians on behalf of others is something "good and pleasing to God," not something infringing on Christâ ™s role as mediator.
James declares: "The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects. Elijah was a man of like nature with ourselves and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth. Then he prayed again and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth its fruit" (Jas. 5:16â “18). Yet those Christians in heaven are more righteous, since they have been made perfect to stand in Godâ ™s presence (Heb. 12:22-23), than anyone on earth, meaning their prayers would be even more efficacious.
As for your silly notion of contacting the dead, God indicates that one is not to conjure the dead for purposes of gaining information; one is to look to Godâ ™s prophets instead. Thus one is not to hold a seance. But anyone with an ounce of common sense can discern the vast qualitative difference between holding a seance to have the dead speak through you and a son humbly saying at his motherâ ™s grave, "Mom, please pray to Jesus for me; Iâ ™m having a real problem right now." The difference between the two is the difference between night and day. One is an occult practice bent on getting secret information; the other is a humble request for a loved one to pray to God on oneâ ™s behalf.
Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, we read: "[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God" (Rev. 8:3-4).
And those in heaven who offer to God our prayers arenâ ™t just angels, but humans as well. John sees that "the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:8). The simple fact is, as this passage shows: The saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.
I hope this helps and I thank you for asking in a kind and open minded manner. There are so many who show such hatred toward the Catholic Church, which I don't understand because we all worship the same God, we just do it a little differently.
God bless,
Stanbo
If so, what is so weird in praying for those souls or in seeking guidance (not redemption) from those why lived Saintly lives on this earth? After all, they are great examples of all that is good.
Hope this helps!
Actually, praying to them is some kind of relief and need for illumination from somebody who actually owned a very knowledge we need on the moment. Buddha for instance, was not an avatar... but somebody so devoted and right that is often a sign of inspiration that anyone would wish to be inspired by or follow as an example (at least that's what I understand about him, if I'm wrong, please correct).
There is a general confusion about this theme, but that's how I resolve it (I never prayed to somebody who isn't God, and I'm roman catholic, so, go figure).
This question I believe, it has good intentions, but it's not done well... it feels like a rant about a religion is not your own.
Saints are essentially people who are honored for "performing 3 miracles" that have benefitted people. I think that "miracles" can mean a great many things but, in this context - a real world context, not the context of scripture depicting fantastic events - it typically means "having a stupendous positive impact" or "causing exception positive acheivements".
So when they pray to Saints, they aren't really *praying* to the Saint but, rather, to the repressentation the Saint had in conjunction with his or her actions and how they repressented the communcal values of their Faith.
So, essentially, it's a prayer to the "spirit" of the Saint where "spirit" equals "the nature of the positive impact of the Saints actions". I *think*, and I hope I'm not crossing over any lines here, that it's like a more formalized and spiritually rooted version of someone saying something like "I wish I had my mothers' strength".
As much as religions and Saints are about Faith, they're also about community, growth of community and the celebration of individuals whose actions really repressented the values of the community. People look at FDR and George Washington as American heroes, I *think* that this Saint stuff is really kind of along the same lines.
But, i could be wrong. Again, I'm not a Theist and am really only just learning about these things (sorry, I find Theism very interesting and love learning about it).
How can we be contacting the dead?
John 3: 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
They have eternal life, they are NOT dead!
most catholics i know pray directly to saints (although i can't entirely fault them with this as my country is a largely catholic country and people here grew up with a somewhat faulty catholic upbringing/traditions that was taught by the colonizing Spaniards and eventually evolved into something else, e.g. keeping pictures of saints and praying to it, sometimes even kissing it). also, Jesus said that He is the only way through God, and we don't need to pray/talk to anyone else to get to Jesus. the reason why Jesus died was so that we can be washed of our sins which separate us from God. once you accept Jesus as your personal savior, the sins that kept us from God was cleansed by Jesus' blood and you can now have a personal relationship with God. you don't need anyone or anything else but Jesus.
Its really no more irrational than any form of prayer.
A little add on:
If we were suppose to don't you think Saul would have contacted Samuel through prayer instead of going to a seance to bring him back? Obviously he knew he wouldn't be able to hear him....
The saints were men who had holy souls + the baptism of the holy spirit (parakletos)
Their power to heal and perform miracles, signs & wonders was from God. Praying to the saints is futile because God is the head honcho.
If you wanted a payrise, who would you rather ask, your colleague or the CEO of your company? Same thing with prayer.
It is like asking your mother for help on a math problem. You aren't worshiping her, you are just asking for help.
And don't listen to things people, especially Protestant pastors, say about Catholics. It is very often not true, or extremely ignorant.
That's one of the reasons Martin Luther split from the Catholic Church in the 1500's.
Read his entire 95 Theses for more information:
THE 95 THESES
by Martin Luther
1. When our Lord and Master Jesus Christ said, "Repent" (Mt 4:17), he willed the entire life of believers to be one of repentance.
2. This word cannot be understood as referring to the sacrament of penance, that is, confession and satisfaction, as administered by the clergy.
3. Yet it does not mean solely inner repentance; such inner repentance is worthless unless it produces various outward mortification of the flesh.
4. The penalty of sin remains as long as the hatred of self (that is, true inner repentance), namely till our entrance into the kingdom of heaven.
5. The pope neither desires nor is able to remit any penalties except those imposed by his own authority or that of the canons.
6. The pope cannot remit any guilt, except by declaring and showing that it has been remitted by God; or, to be sure, by remitting guilt in cases reserved to his judgment. If his right to grant remission in these cases were disregarded, the guilt would certainly remain unforgiven.
7. God remits guilt to no one unless at the same time he humbles him in all things and makes him submissive to the vicar, the priest.
8. The penitential canons are imposed only on the living, and, according to the canons themselves, nothing should be imposed on the dying.
9. Therefore the Holy Spirit through the pope is kind to us insofar as the pope in his decrees always makes exception of the article of death and of necessity.
10. Those priests act ignorantly and wickedly who, in the case of the dying, reserve canonical penalties for purgatory.
11. Those tares of changing the canonical penalty to the penalty of purgatory were evidently sown while the bishops slept (Mt 13:25).
12. In former times canonical penalties were imposed, not after, but before absolution, as tests of true contrition.
13. The dying are freed by death from all penalties, are already dead as far as the canon laws are concerned, and have a right to be released from them.
14. Imperfect piety or love on the part of the dying person necessarily brings with it great fear; and the smaller the love, the greater the fear.
15. This fear or horror is sufficient in itself, to say nothing of other things, to constitute the penalty of purgatory, since it is very near to the horror of despair.
16. Hell, purgatory, and heaven seem to differ the same as despair, fear, and assurance of salvation.
17. It seems as though for the souls in purgatory fear should necessarily decrease and love increase.
18. Furthermore, it does not seem proved, either by reason or by Scripture, that souls in purgatory are outside the state of merit, that is, unable to grow in love.
19. Nor does it seem proved that souls in purgatory, at least not all of them, are certain and assured of their own salvation, even if we ourselves may be entirely certain of it.
20. Therefore the pope, when he uses the words "plenary remission of all penalties," does not actually mean "all penalties," but only those imposed by himself.
21. Thus those indulgence preachers are in error who say that a man is absolved from every penalty and saved by papal indulgences.
22. As a matter of fact, the pope remits to souls in purgatory no penalty which, according to canon law, they should have paid in this life.
23. If remission of all penalties whatsoever could be granted to anyone at all, certainly it would be granted only to the most perfect, that is, to very few.
24. For this reason most people are necessarily deceived by that indiscriminate and high-sounding promise of release from penalty.
25. That power which the pope has in general over purgatory corresponds to the power which any bishop or curate has in a particular way in his own diocese and parish.
26. The pope does very well when he grants remission to souls in purgatory, not by the power of the keys, which he does not have, but by way of intercession for them.
27. They preach only human doctrines who say that as soon as the money clinks into the money chest, the soul flies out of purgatory.
28. It is certain that when money clinks in the money chest, greed and avarice can be increased; but when the church intercedes, the result is in the hands of God alone.
29. Who knows whether all souls in purgatory wish to be redeemed, since we have exceptions in St. Severinus and St. Paschal, as related in a legend.
30. No one is sure of the integrity of his own contrition, much less of having received plenary remission.
31. The man who actually buys indulgences is as rare as he who is really penitent; indeed, he is exceedingly rare.
32. Those who believe that they can be certain of their salvation because they have indulgence letters will be eternally damned, together with their teachers.
33. Men must especially be on guard against those who say that the pope's pardons are that inestimable gift of God by which man is reconciled to him.
34. For the graces of indulgences are concerned only with the penalties of sacramental satisfaction established by man.
35. They who teach that contrition is not necessary on the part of those who intend to buy souls out of purgatory or to buy confessional privileges preach unchristian doctrine.
36. Any truly repentant Christian has a right to full remission of penalty and guilt, even without indulgence letters.
37. Any true Christian, whether living or dead, participates in all the blessings of Christ and the church; and this is granted him by God, even without indulgence letters.
38. Nevertheless, papal remission and blessing are by no means to be disregarded, for they are, as I have said (Thesis 6), the proclamation of the divine remission.
39. It is very difficult, even for the most learned theologians, at one and the same time to commend to the people the bounty of indulgences and the need of true contrition.
40. A Christian who is truly contrite seeks and loves to pay penalties for his sins; the bounty of indulgences, however, relaxes penalties and causes men to hate them -- at least it furnishes occasion for hating them.
41. Papal indulgences must be preached with caution, lest people erroneously think that they are preferable to other good works of love.
42. Christians are to be taught that the pope does not intend that the buying of indulgences should in any way be compared with works of mercy.
43. Christians are to be taught that he who gives to the poor or lends to the needy does a better deed than he who buys indulgences.
44. Because love grows by works of love, man thereby becomes better. Man does not, however, become better by means of indulgences but is merely freed from penalties.
45. Christians are to be taught that he who sees a needy man and passes him by, yet gives his money for indulgences, does not buy papal indulgences but God's wrath.
46. Christians are to be taught that, unless they have more than they need, they must reserve enough for their family needs and by no means squander it on indulgences.
47. Christians are to be taught that they buying of indulgences is a matter of free choice, not commanded.
48 Christians are to be taught that the pope, in granting indulgences, needs and thus desires their devout prayer more than their money.
49. Christians are to be taught that papal indulgences are useful only if they do not put their trust in them, but very harmful if they lose their fear of God because of them.
50. Christians are to be taught that if the pope knew the exactions of the indulgence preachers, he would rather that the basilica of St. Peter were burned to ashes than built up with the skin, flesh, and bones of his sheep.
51. Christians are to be taught that the pope would and should wish to give of his own money, even though he had to sell the basilica of St. Peter, to many of those from whom certain hawkers of indulgences cajole money.
52. It is vain to trust in salvation by indulgence letters, even though the indulgence commissary, or even the pope, were to offer his soul as security.
53. They are the enemies of Christ and the pope who forbid altogether the preaching of the Word of God in some churches in order that indulgences may be preached in others.
54. Injury is done to the Word of God when, in the same sermon, an equal or larger amount of time is devoted to indulgences than to the Word.
55. It is certainly the pope's sentiment that if indulgences, which are a very insignificant thing, are celebrated with one bell, one procession, and one ceremony, then the gospel, which is the very greatest thing, should be preached with a hundred bells, a hundred processions, a hundred ceremonies.
56. The true treasures of the church, out of which the pope distributes indulgences, are not sufficiently discussed or known among the people of Christ.
57. That indulgences are not temporal treasures is certainly clear, for many indulgence sellers do not distribute them freely but only gather them.
58. Nor are they the merits of Christ and the saints, for, even without the pope, the latter always work grace for the inner man, and
u make a good point, though. i always wanted to speak to my loved ones who passed on.
They are allowed to intercede if you ask them. Certain saints have special attributes and can be of help.
The only person you shoudl worship is none other than out heavely father in heaven.
The role of the saints are to assist you in prayer. Thats all. They are God's servants and carry out his will.
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